Arguing with David Futrelle

Hiya,

David Futrelle has a post entitled Are Nice Guys sociopaths

He references this dark article at Sociopathword: Sexual sadism (part 1)

“I don’t know what happened with me. I’ve always had a strong sex drive, but I got fucked over socially. I wasn’t even “in” in the reject crowd. All girls rejected me, and most rejects rejected me. People made fun of me, laughed at me, picked on me, and all the girls that I lusted after were either repulsed by me, or didn’t know who I was. Even the girls that were “friends” with me, wouldn’t have sex with me. Meanwhile, they went around whoring themselves out to whatever man played this fucking dumb-ass social flirting game. They sucked his cock, guzzled his cum, and opened their legs like the dirty little whores they are. I’ve been available my whole life, but the only person that ever chose me as a mate were paid prostitutes, and my wife, who is emotionally and mentally fucked up beyond comprehension.

This is the reason I don’t care about people. Why the fuck should I? Everybody wheres a mask. I want to rape and murder people, and I pretend I’m “normal.” Normal people wear a mask where they pretend they’re friendly and honest; whereas, they’re really deceptive, insecure, and emotionally hostile.”

Now, David takes these angry words and compares sociopaths to “Nice Guys TM.” Mr. Futrelle says, “The difference? For one thing, this new guy is a bit more self-aware than most “nice guys,” in that he doesn’t actually describe himself as “nice.” For another, he is (or at least claims to be) a sociopath.”

In the original article at Sociopathworld, some replies in the thread question whether the author is even a sociopath:

Refudiate said…

“I’m disappointed that this post had almost nothing to do with sexual sadism. Also the guy who wrote this is a terrible. I bet he doesn’t even have the guts to actually ask women out, he probably waits around for them to offer sex to him and gets angry when that doesn’t happen. Being angry and stupid is different than being a sociopath.”
August 19, 2011 6:23 AM

Now I did find some information on sociopaths at The Sociopathic Style –one trait that pertains to this:

“PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR — a variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.”

I haven’t found a “clinical definition” of “Nice Guys TM” so I will use the article “What is a Nice Guy?” by Jeff Fecke as a “working definition.” In contrast, “Nice Guys” seem unable to get sexual relationships.

Here are some comments I left on Manboobs and Mr. Futrelle’s response:

stonerwithaboner | August 25, 2011 at 3:11 am

Well, I think you are a bit off on this one.

Conflating “Nice Guys” with Sociopaths—I don’t know about that….

One of the often mentioned characteristics of sociopath’s is their “promiscuity”–usually a few lines after glib, superficially charming….

Isn’t one of the determining characteristics of “Nice Guys” their inability to get sex?

As far as Sociopathworld…. interesting site but I wouldn’t take things left by readers there super serious. There is a checklist by Dr. Robert Hare to measure sociopathy–wouldn’t just go by what someone seeking attention on the internet is saying to determine a diagnosis….

If you want to read some of the aftermath stories of those unfortunate enough to get involved with sociopath’s go to lovefraud.com…..

Anyways, this just seems to be one more example of your twisted worldview where you try to putt one group of people you don’t like next to another group generally reviled by society….

…….

Interestingly enough, you called sociopathy a disorder, it is considered a pathology by some but there are those who think there are evolutionary benefits and it is another mode of being….

In the book On Killing, David Grossman postulated that sociopath’s make great soldiers during wartime as they have little reluctance to kill and don’t seem to suffer from PTSD or shellshock….

I have also heard people mention that (yes, I know he is a fictional character) Dr. House may be a sociopath but his lack of empathy allows him to see clearly and also bend rules and ethics to get things done-perhaps benevolent sociopathy…..
—————-

There were a few comments which you will have to visit the original thread to view as I found them not very thoughtful.

—————-

stonerwithaboner | August 25, 2011 at 12:24 pm

Aspergers is a totally different thing than sociopathy–and while we’re at it schizophrenia is another thing entirely……

Don’t conflate things that are separate…..

How do you “know” that a “Nice Guy” is a closeted sociopath? Did you run Dr. Hare’s checklist on him?

If you have a problem with someone’s attitude towards women, then, by all means address that–don’t make a “diagnosis” you are unqualified to make……

——-

Just an observation, someone may watch a movie like “American Psycho,” do some basic reading after about three or four hours scouring the web then go to a site and “claim to be a sociopath.”

Just like someone can go to a PUA forum and “claim to sleep with a hundred women”–just throw in a few buzzwords like kino, sarging and cold approach then go on to write some bad erotica…….

——————-

a few more comments lead me to write this-

stonerwithaboner | August 27, 2011 at 10:15 pm

y’know years ago I learned that there was a name for someone who enjoyed putting others down who had “social difficulties,” it was called BULLY…..

I guess you will have to call it “Bully TM” to make it kewlz on teh interwebz…….
————–

David Futrelle responds….

David Futrelle | August 27, 2011 at 11:58 pm

Stoner, did you actually read my post? I didn’t claim that “nice guys” are sociopaths; indeed I specifically said they weren’t. I noted that some specific things about a posting by a sociopath reminded me of things I’ve seen “nice guys” say. (And by “nice guys,” I’m referring to a specific sort of guy who thinks he’s nice, but really isn’t, in part because he seems to have no empathy for the women he fixates on.) I could explain more, or you could jsut go back and read what I actually wrote.

And I’m most definitely NOT mocking people with social difficulties for having social difficulties. I’ve had social difficulties; practically everyone I know has dealt with them. Including women, of course.

I am mocking (or at least criticizing) guys with social difficulties who turn around and blame women for it all, getting angry that women actually — gasp! — get to choose who they go out with. Or feeling sort of glad an old crush got raped because she “had it coming.”

If a guy has social difficulties, and instead of turning into a misogynist creep, actually develops empathy for others with the same difficulties, that’s fantastic. It’s the awkward dudes who turn into hateful misogynist creeps I’m not so fond of.
——————

My response to Mr Futrelle:

stonerwithaboner | August 28, 2011 at 1:13 pm

David,

I did read your post.

I also read the post at Sociopathworld where many on the thread questioned whether the post was written by an actual sociopath or someone merely seeking attention. As I mentioned above, someone could easily claim to be a sociopath just as someone could easily go to a PUA forum and claim to have 100+ sex partners-doesn’t mean that either are authentic…..

“And I’m most definitely NOT mocking people with social difficulties for having social difficulties. I’ve had social difficulties; practically everyone I know has dealt with them. Including women, of course. ”

Maybe you didn’t specifically mock someone but No More Mr. Niceguy’s comments about Aspergers seemed to do so and there has been blowback in the thread–hence the bullying comment…..

“I am mocking (or at least criticizing) guys with social difficulties who turn around and blame women for it all, getting angry that women actually — gasp! — get to choose who they go out with. Or feeling sort of glad an old crush got raped because she “had it coming.”

Thanks for the clarification. I believe that you and Amanda Marcotte need to be much more clear when you describe “Nice Gus TM” as you may be trying to portray a “Shallow Hal” character and your readers, or at least I was seeing more of a “Forty Year Old Virgin” character. The view I get is that the “Forty Year Old Virgin” character doesn’t necessarily deserve tons of pity but it is extremely unfair to treat him with scorn…..
stonerwithaboner | August 28, 2011 at 1:15 pm

….that’s “Nice Guys TM”–my apologies to any Gus’s I may have offended 😉

3 thoughts on “Arguing with David Futrelle

  1. This made for interesting reading, thanks. I’ll make two comments since one is a general observation and one relating to this matter.

    Generally:

    Ever notice how femmies like Futrelle like to use examples of super-weird exceptions like finding a mass-murdering nice-guy and then try to somehow imply he’s representative of all people to have ever called themselves “nice guy”?

    But in the other direction, if you point out a famous and best-selling femmie author spreading hatred and downright vile violence against men, they will distance themselves by saying “she’s an exception”.

    It’s fascinating. They keep claiming NAFALT for things that are a HUGE majority in their movement, but when they criticize others, they focus on the worst 0.00000001%.

  2. “And I’m most definitely NOT mocking people with social difficulties for having social difficulties. I’ve had social difficulties; practically everyone I know has dealt with them. Including women, of course. ”

    Did you catch that? That right there shows he has NO understanding for being born on the wrong side of things.

    If he says “practically everyone I know has dealt with social difficulities” then his fucking definition is (by definition) wrong, or too broad. He has no idea what it’s like to be the guy who is deemed “odd” and so “akward” and different than 95% of people.

    He has no idea how incredibly bad women treat such a guy. He has no idea what it’s like to be treated as a predator, creep, pervert before even opening your mouth, just because you’re somewhat different in your language/movement patterns.

    Futrelle said:

    I am mocking (or at least criticizing) guys with social difficulties who turn around and blame women for it all, getting angry that women actually — gasp! — get to choose who they go out with. Or feeling sort of glad an old crush got raped because she “had it coming.”

    That’s a SEVERE misrepresentation.

    The guys don’t blame the women for having social difficulties. That’s insane lol. How can anyone blame someone they just met for something that’s happened to them from birth 😀

    What the guys do however is blame the women for PROLONGING and making the problem worse with their shaming, mocking and humiliating treatment.

    When you’re a socially anxious guy you find that women mock and ridicule you for not having a girlfriend and tell you that you must be A BAD HUMAN BEING or that there’s something FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG WITH YOU if you don’t have a girlfriend.

    They don’t say “oh, he’s just probably too shy to have found a girlfriend yet”. The women actually bully you and say that you must be a DEFUNCT human being if you don’t have sex or dates – and that you’re not a real man if you’re not out there courting women.

    But then when you try to court women, they see your weakness and they reject you in vicious, humiliating and theatrical ways. In fact, a lot of them make a big deal of having rejected you – while of course, blaming you for the rejection.

    They then take your social akwardness and any social faux pas of yours and use them as “evidence” that you are an un-empathetic idiotic creep and use it as an excuse to humiliate you… But then they turn around and blame you for doing it.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s