…the current MRM is an epic fail…

Here is what I see as the biggest problems of the current MRM…

1.) Not recognizing biological differences between men and women.

Men and women are different. This doesn’t mean that they should be paid differently for the same work or treated differently under the law. However playing the victim card the way feminist have done will not elicit sympathy but rather disgust. Men’s value (whether this is right or wrong is another issue) is measured in their strength and utility. Look at all the men who have gone through a divorce after a job loss. Connect the dots.

2.) Some men are more equal than others…

I’ve seen ideologue Paul Elam rip apart other men who disagree with him with insults towards their status. He’s done this to me personally and also to MGTOW Stardusk. He throws histrionics and refuses to engage in rational debate. This is not someone who should be a leader.

Furthermore, many so-called MRM sites have linked to White Nationalist sites and PUA sites. Do I even have to explain why this is wrong? In PUA dichotomies, some men are lesser than other men–the so-called hapless, incel, Nice Guy ™ Beta’s. Also, how is this Men’s Rights when you’ve got a bunch of weirdo’s pushing off a psuedo science like HBD? How is this Men’s Right’s when those with darker skin aren’t even seen as fully human. Specific examples of this can be found when a so-called MRA like Bernard Chapin promotes Heartiste or AVfM links to a place like Inmalafide. (Yes, I did unfortunately contribute articles to IMF.)

3.) Pushing political worldviews onto the readers.

This has shown itself with early MRM writers pushing a “right wing” libertarian bent. Some may say this was reactionary towards feminist’s left-leaning views. Ironically, now the AVfM crowd seems to be leaning towards Dean Esmay’s “classically liberal” and dare I say marxist worldviews that are strikingly similar to many feminist’s. Apparently there was a big blow out between Chapin and Esmay.

I do believe that it is ultimately impossible to keep politics and different worldviews out of the discussions. However, these arguments poison the well and scare off potential allies.

4.) Postulating “Critical Theory” to explain the complexities of Real Life.

I’ve read theories put forth by Typhon Blue and Girl Writes What. They were interesting reads, however… Just as “patriarchy theory” often creates a closed mindedness in feminists when discussing gender issues, adherence to these theories can also create blindspots. This is similar to the simpleminded dichotomy of “red pill”/”blue pill.” Leave the simplemindedness behind. Reality is a whole other experience.
—–

Now I know you may be reading this and thinking I’ve got allot of complaints but no solutions. And that is a valid observation…

More to the point, I believe if the MRM doesn’t proceed in the right direction it is better not to proceed at all.

As a mixed race man, I sure as fuck am not gonna be “on your side” if you keep on pedaling the “masculine, androphile wisdom” of Jack Don-0-van…

I’ve already gone down the mistaken path thinking the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I regrettably interacted at Inmalafide. That’s a mistake I won’t make again.

I can give a few simple answers that won’t work for all men or even many…

I believe that “opting out” is an incredibly effective strategy. What’s happens when the US Warmachine can’t find soldiers? Look at how the Japanese government is freaking out because of all the “grasseaters.” A young man should guard his utility in this day and age the way a young woman would’ve guarded her chastity in years past.

I believe that there are organizations that aren’t part of the online MRM that do work that benefits men. One is The Innocence Project. Perhaps better to look into these than get drawn into ideologues pointless arguments.

Perhaps that’s not enough. Feel free to leave comments…

9 thoughts on “…the current MRM is an epic fail…

  1. Much respect. Jack Donovan is a knucklewalker. I used to have some respect for Roosh, but his new blog, ReturnOfMouthbreathers is an embarrassment. There is far too much moronism in the manosphere. It’s disgusting. You think hating fembots is a license to become a fucking turd.

  2. Awesome observations, Stoner. I’ve only delved into the manosphere in the past 3 years, and even then missed a lot of the in fighting crap like between Elam/Stardust and Chapin/Barbarossa. But you have so many valid points…especially in regards to the racism, homophobia, latent misandry against “beta” or untraditional men, or (I’m almost loathe to say it) irrational anger towards every woman except for maybe 5. Men’s rights have been stomped on and overlooked completely in modern society, and I believe in changing that through personal discussion and speaking out against misandry seen in daily life…but with the manosphere being what it is, I’ll stay Egalitarian, thanks.

    As for worthwhile organizations for men’s help, there’s the Wounded Warrior Project, various Prostate Cancer funds, ManTherapy.org, and JustDetention.org. As far as I’ve been able to tell, they all live up to their mission statements and don’t misappropriate their donations. Oh, and a weird one that I’m going to talk about on my “Virgin Shaming” post this week is The Snuggery. It’s a small apartment run by 2 fairly lovely women, and they offer one on one cuddling sessions with clients who feel unloved, are perpetually single, are widowed or just need human contact. Last I heard, they were for men only (unsure if this is still true though). A fantastic concept, nonetheless!

      1. @Danny

        Yes, that’s the one. I can’t stand cuddling/hugging myself usually, but I think it’s tremendous that it’s something offered to others who need touch. There should be more people like this lady.

  3. The problem with the MRM is that it is several different ideologies pretending to be a singular movement. You have people like Donovan, who want to be macho-tribalists fighting for their fatherland in pointless wars for the purpose of being real men. Having known some former real life friends of Donovan, the guy is far from the macho-tribalist he pretends to be. For one he is a race mixer. The last time I heard he had a long term relationship with a Mexican man who lives in a trailer park. This is not a joke, but a true fact. However, I cannot say if he is currently involved with the guy. Basically he goes for the dark meat, while preaching how good and tasty the white meat is to the public. Also Donovan had multiple lovers while sleeping with this Mexican dude. Basically he is a slut, and not a man of virtue.

    Then you have the political PUAs. They are pickup artists who infused politics into their questionable not absolutely wrong life style. During the Wiedmann Era of the political PUA, they were macho-nihilists. They were about sleeping with chicks, status, and anti-feminism. Now they did have some rightwing beliefs in the old days. They were fascinated with evolutionary psychology and its lesser cousin human biodiversity. They were also into strength training and paleo-diet like today. However, they were not crazy in the Wiedmann era. They were a bunch of silly white guys having fun. And then Roissy was outed as James C. Wiedmann, and it all imploded from there.

    Matt Forney, Hawaiian Blogger, Voxday, and Roosh brought the crazy to the political PUA movement. Conspiracy theories became popular. An interest in human biodiversity bloomed into apocalyptic bizarro racism. When it comes to racism; human biodiversity is pot, Roosh’s mild white nationalism or whitopianism is cocaine, neo-nazism is meth, and Matt Forney’s edenism is drain cleaner. They started to do harder and weirder forms of racisms. Paleo-diet which is just Atkins with a mythology became a political cause. So did strength training for the political PUAs. They got meaner, more hysterical, and downright stupid. All the nihilism disappeared, and they became macho-doomers. People who fear the end of the world is upon us due to feminism.

    Chuck Ross is about the most normal of the group of political PUAs today. He has drifted from them, and seems to be focused on a real career. Yes, he is racist, but he is not weird like Roosh. Roosh seems to have issues about his racial identity. He wants to be white, but other whiteboys will not let him play in whiteboy games. Also what makes the Macho-Tribalists like Donovan different from the Macho-Doomers is that the Macho-Tribalists love war. They want war and worship it. The Macho-Doomers love status and worship it. Donovan wants to holocaust all the betas, while Roosh just wants to enslave them.

    Then you have Paul Elam and his gang of man huggers at Voice for Men. Man huggers can be defined in one phrase, boys also cry, you heartless cunts. Man huggers spend their time talking about all those mean cunts and bullies on the internet. Man huggers are against the manning up bs of the hag hordes, yet also embrace feminist style thinking on responsibility. They are the male version of feminists. They hate many women for being snowflakes, because they want to be snowflakes too.

    Man huggers are not bad guys like the first two groups. Pussies, but not bad guys who want to kill and enslave people. They are also very smart to point out a lot of basic truths about male power. That only some men actually have it, while the rest are just slaves. Especially when comes to war, contrary to Donovan’s obsessions. For all soldiers are slaves who die for their masters, and not noble warriors for the fatherland.

    Then there are the dudetarians. Guys that infused libertarianism with men’s rights beliefs. They are like the mild form of macho-doomers and macho-tribalists. They believe in free markets, and free men. Dudetarians have a rather simplistic way of looking at things. Basically statism and feminism are the same things. That when women got the right to vote, everything went socialist. Dudetarians feel when feminism is defeated the left will disappear. They really buy into the critical theory being the cause of everything wrong with society bs. However, they usually just call it Marxism, and not Cultural Marxism. Also they are not conspiracy obsessed like the macho-doomers.

    Lastly you have the brotheists. They are a group of anti-feminist atheists who seem to be genuine free thinkers. They do have some common ideals and enemies. They hate the three fs, fascism, feminism, and fundamentalism. They are atheists. They are mild believers in progressive or libertarian ideas. However, they are not fanatical about anything but being against the three fs and atheism. The brotheists are the best of the bunch since they are the least dogmatic. They really are not a group, but a group of male atheists that share a lot of the same ideas. Anti-feminist youtubers like Integralmath, the Amazing Atheist, and Mad Shangi are part of this group. Not saying they do not have flaws, but they are the least crazy of the factions.

    MRM movement will likely continue to flounder. The man huggers are turning it into their movement. Meanwhile the macho-doomers have pretty much started their own group in all but name. Donovan will die of aids or an in fight with some nobody who pissed him off. His macho-tribalism will die with him. Brotheists will never be a movement, but a group without leaders. The dudetarians will accept Chuck Ross into their hugebox.

  4. Also sorry for the lousy quality of the comment. I wrote it in a rush. Everything I said about Donovan is an open secret in Portland.

  5. …the current post is an epic fail…

    You write….

    1.) Not recognizing biological differences between men and women. Men and women are different.

    and

    2.) [ . . . ] Also, how is this Men’s Rights when you’ve got a bunch of weirdo’s pushing off a psuedo science [sic] like HBD?

    HBD is not a pseudoscience but the statement that there are biological differences between different people and groups of people, just as in your point 1. *headdesk* It only becomes a pseudoscience when it is incorrecly applied, such as suggesting that certain (groups of) people are inferior. In this regard you and Advocatus Diaboli have a lot in common with feminists, such as Rebecca Watson, who don’t like HBD either because it stands in the way of their delusions. . .

    http://dissention.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/problems-with-evolutionary-psychology-01/
    http://dissention.wordpress.com/2010/02/11/problems-with-evolutionary-psychology-02/

    Regarding 3.) Pushing political worldviews onto the readers. and 4.) Postulating “Critical Theory” to explain the complexities of Real Life.

    Yes it’s not just about politics it’s about human nature. This is the mistake of the “It’s Not Women, It’s Feminism” crowd, but it’s impossible to change human nature (until genetic modification becomes feasible and cheap) only politics, so who cares? If women can’t exploit men though the courts and police you’ve solved most of the problems.

    Anyway, these is another very simple way to achieve most of what MRAs, MGTOWs and PUAssybeggars want, but pro-life nutjobs such as you and Barbarossaaaa won’t like the sound of it. It involves sex-selectively aborting 99% of the male fetuses. This may look like what a lot of radical feminists want, but it does not involve the killing or castrating of existing males. The male:female ratio in Ukraine is 85:100 and this a large causative factor in why Ukrainian women are so well-behaved. Imagine what effects aborting 99% of the males will have. It will achieve world piece immediately. It’s also the Doctor Strangelove Solution, but you may call it the Plague Doctor Solution. Remember, you read it here from me first.

  6. …the current post is an epic fail…

    You write….

    1.) Not recognizing biological differences between men and women. Men and women are different.

    and

    2.) [ . . . ] Also, how is this Men’s Rights when you’ve got a bunch of weirdo’s pushing off a psuedo science [sic] like HBD?

    HBD is not a pseudoscience but the statement that there are biological differences between different people and groups of people, just as in your point 1. *headdesk* It only becomes a pseudoscience when it is incorrecly applied, such as suggesting that certain (groups of) people are inferior. In this regard you and Advocatus Diaboli have a lot in common with feminists, such as Rebecca Watson, who don’t like HBD either because it stands in the way of their delusions. . .

    dissention.wordpress .com/2010/01/24/problems-with-evolutionary-psychology-01/
    dissention.wordpress .com/2010/02/11/problems-with-evolutionary-psychology-02/

    Regarding 3.) Pushing political worldviews onto the readers. and 4.) Postulating “Critical Theory” to explain the complexities of Real Life.

    Yes it’s not just about politics it’s about human nature. This is the mistake of the “It’s Not Women, It’s Feminism” crowd, but it’s impossible to change human nature (until genetic modification becomes feasible and cheap) only politics, so who cares? If women can’t exploit men though the courts and police you’ve solved most of the problems.

    Anyway, these is another very simple way to achieve most of what MRAs, MGTOWs and PUAssybeggars want, but pro-life nutjobs such as you and Barbarossaaaa won’t like the sound of it. It involves sex-selectively aborting 99% of the male fetuses. This may look like what a lot of radical feminists want, but it does not involve the killing or castrating of existing males. The male:female ratio in Ukraine is 85:100 and this a large causative factor in why Ukrainian women are so well-behaved. Imagine what effects aborting 99% of the males will have. It will achieve world piece immediately. It’s also the Doctor Strangelove Solution, but you may call it the Plague Doctor Solution. Remember, you read it here from me first.

  7. Isn’t the really only about the online MRM? The real world MRM, which is made up of men like Glenn Sacks and Stephen Baskerville, is very different.

    Not recognizing biological differences between men and women.

    How many MRAs are actually doing this? Usually, when I see this argument, it’s a traditionalist conservative (who explicitly state that they are not MRAs) canard to attack the idea of equality before the law.

    I suppose you could say that the Dickless Man Project is guilty of this, but they also explicitly say that they aren’t MRAs.

    I’ve seen ideologue Paul Elam rip apart other men who disagree with him with insults towards their status. He’s done this to me personally and also to MGTOW Stardusk. He throws histrionics and refuses to engage in rational debate. This is not someone who should be a leader.

    Agreed, although the MRM isn’t defined exclusively by Paul Elam.

    Furthermore, many so-called MRM sites have linked to White Nationalist sites and PUA sites.

    How many actual MRAs sites are still linking to sites like that? While plenty used to, I’m having trouble coming up with any that still do given how the man-0-sphere has explicitly attacked the MRM.

    Pushing political worldviews onto the readers.

    This has shown itself with early MRM writers pushing a “right wing” libertarian bent.

    I see your point, but things have greatly improved. It used to be that the MRM required you to be some flavor of social conservative. That’s been jettisoned, and there is much more tolerance for a wider political spectrum.

    The reason why there is a libertarian bent being pushed is that feminism isn’t just “liberal” or “left wing”. It requires big government to survive. Eliminating feminism will end up significantly shrinking government. For that reason alone, there will always be some degree of libertarianism in the MRM.

    Postulating “Critical Theory” to explain the complexities of Real Life.

    I can’t disagree with this, but how much of this is due to lingering man-0-sphere influence?

    What’s happens when the US Warmachine can’t find soldiers?

    Depending on the time frame we’re talking about, the answer is going to be build terminators.

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