MGTOW and “misogyny”

If you have the misfortune, or I guess morbid curiosity, you may venture over to Roosh 5’s troll site–or at least I hope it’s a troll site but I’m not sure when it comes to the pseudo religions of “game” and HBD. Of course Fraudtrelle ™ took the bait–it must’ve been wrapped up in a McDonalds cheezeburger…

Now, Return of Creepers, er, Kings seems to be taking over where Inmalafide left off. A funny cesspool for guys to raise their arms and go “arrrrggghhhhhhh!!!!!” But one thing it certainly isn’t is MGTOW. It’s advocating marriage, an institution that has shown itself toxic to men. MGTOW’s as a group are advocating avoiding marriage and all the entanglements that go along. It’s the so-called MRA’s who want to turn things into a girls club and don’t care about the well being of men who aren’t upper middle class, white and vote Democrat.

MGTOW is at best a lose coalition of men writing about their experiences and observations, “opting out” or negotiating a rough terrain as best they can. While there may be a few who are misogynists, most of the anger seems to come from women and white knight men who are upset that these men dare to take their utility off the table.

This is where there is a huge divide from the manureshpere and Elam’s M(H)RM in regards to MGTOW. Where are MGTOW’s trying to control women? I don’t see it.

16 thoughts on “MGTOW and “misogyny”

  1. MGTOWs *aren’t* trying to control women. In fact, the majority just want to be left alone and are actually semi-supportive of women who have their own careers/also shun marriage. If anything, MGTOWs seem to be the least misogynistic of the manosphere groups, although their indifference and pain is commonly mistaken for unjustified hatred. See below for answers straight from the mouths of MGTOWs themselves:

    https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2014/10/23/mgtow-survey-results-part-3-women/

    1. In my opinion, MGTOW needs to separate from the manuresohere-Roosh, Roissy and all the other low grade bullies with the man up, return to patriarchy “red pill” bullshit and get even further away from Elam and his trad-con womyn….

      as far as “career”–I’d love to opt out of the world of work, spend my time mountainbiking, going to the beach, playing guitar and drinking beer.

      1. So you have similar thoughts to BP in regards to the manosphere? I can respect that…especially when it comes to men who try to bully other men into accepting marriage. In my view, if a woman really is “red pill” she would understand that marriage isn’t in a man’s best interest. Again, this is part of the reason I don’t cohabitate with my lover or want to wed him. Why introduce state sanctioned inequality where it’s not needed?

        I can appreciate not wanting a career. It’s certainly not for everyone, and you’re no less of a man for not wanting one. I enjoy my career, but consider myself lucky to have a job I like…if you don’t, then it probably just feels like a rat race.

      2. I’m involuntarily employed, it’s earn a payceck or get a hot date with the local street corner while “my betters” ala Elam, Marcotte and Schwyzer rant about how privileged I am when I ask for change…

        as far as the manuresphere…

        here’s some back reading…

        https://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/doxxed-like-a-motherfucker-the-strange-case-of-mattinand-fornimu-and-other-creepy-tails/

        https://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com/2012/06/16/its-offical-i-will-never-be-an-mra/

        https://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com/2012/06/16/sometimes-im-not-so-articulate-but-sometimes-somethings-should-just-be-left-to-fail/

        anyways all this man-0-sphere faggotry of “my dick is bigger than yours” and you are an omega cause you can’t get laid in a whorehouse with a handful of 50’s–well, how are they any different from feminists again???

    2. “In my view, if a woman really is “red pill” she would understand that marriage isn’t in a man’s best interest. ”

      I agree that a red pill woman would understand that, but want to add to this. A woman might understand that marriage 2.0 can be dangerous to a man, but still pursue a man who wants marriage. It’s highly inadvisable to become an unmarried baby momma with a guy who doesn’t want marriage, and might waste a woman’s years of peak beauty. Also, wanting to be married is natural for many women, and has nothing to do with wanting cash&prises. When you marry, you’re officially one with the one you love. If you don’t marry, you’re just a forever girlfriend, which is not a secure position. In fact it’s kind of a shameful position in many countries. This is just how it is, and you don’t have to sacrifice your happiness for anyone, as long as you act morally and don’t force anyone into anything.

      Same goes for men, of course.

      1. True. I don’t believe AWALT as it’s statistically impossible, but I do believe EWALT (enough women are like that). Because of this, I support MGTOWs in their decision to avoid marriage (although some come to MGTOW afterwards) and it’s potential dangers.

        In my life, being a FwB is not an insecure position since I make my own security, just like any man would. While I can’t truly understand what it’s like to need security from another person, I do empathize with red pill women who have trouble finding a mate. It must be a frustrating experience, wanting to bring nothing but love and happiness into a marriage but also bringing the loaded gun the government gives you…whether you want it or not. A great deal of trust is required on behalf of both parties in regards to marriage these days, and I don’t envy the men and women who desire such an institution.

      2. “If you don’t marry, you’re just a forever girlfriend, which is not a secure position.”

        what about “if you truly love someone, set them free?”

        sounds like you see a man as your retirement plan. Here in the US, I don’t even have secure employment. If I was married and lost my job, I could get thrown to the curb by wifey and she could take my very few remaining assets.

        EDIT to add, my first comment comes across perhaps as overly cynical, it is what it is. As far as marriage-overall, it’s a dangerous proposition. So is starting your own business. Some people start their own business and succeed massively. Many fail. Success or failure is hinged on a number of factors. If some take the risk, that is their choice. I am adverse to this particular risk seeing too many casualties–ie my parents abusive relationship, a close friend who could’ve never married and just visited prostitutes-thus having more frequent sex with more attractive partners and if he tipped them well, they would’ve pretended to like him unlike his ex-wife.

      3. “what about “if you truly love someone, set them free?”

        Right, but it would apply to both sides. Thing is, someone will have to give something up. Either the woman gives up her security, or the man gives up his. There is no totally pain-free solution. And you gain nothing by going “Why won’t you marry me, don’t you trust me?” and “Why won’t you just be a baby momma, don’t you trust me?”. Someone has to put themselves at risk.

        And it’s not about me personally, it was about red pill women (although I can understand them and agree that they should look for a marriage-minded man). The security you and Tarnished have trouble understanding is not purely financial, and sometimes might not be financial at all. Marriage is not just a piece of paper, it’s a major commitment, signalling that the man wants to spend his life with you and really trusts you. This is the emotional security. Marriage also means you’re a unit and the woman “belongs” to the man, which to many women is important and they feel kinda crappy without it. Enemies would be sure to exploit that fact as well, making fun of her “commitmentless” relationship and calling her children bastards. If she has the emotional strength to not care, great, but a lot of women DO care, and then it’s best not to put yourself in a situation where you’re gradually mentally worn down.

        And yes, if they want to have babies, they consider it best to raise them with one parent present at home while they are small (so finances matter in this case. Finances and the man’s willingness to temporary support the wife).

        I’m personally ambivalent about marriage, because I’m unsure what will happen to us if we married. I trust my man with my life, but I don’t trust the state. I live in a country with many tax laws, and I’m just not sure. However, having his last name and being “his” would have been nice.

        Really, if someone doesn’t want to marry, I have no problem with that. But I did want to explain where this urge to marry might come from, and why it’s not, in itself, evil.

    1. seems like it’s the feminists and even more so the traditionalists who hate MGTOW. Bully boy Elam is trying to recruit them for his failing “men’s rights” movement and getting angry because we don’t want him as “our voice.”

      1. seems like it’s the feminists and even more so the traditionalists who hate MGTOW.

        Of course. THey need an enemy and who better than people whose very way of life is to want to be left alone. They’re kicking people while they are down and then have the nerve to claim to be the victims.

        Bully boy Elam is trying to recruit them for his failing “men’s rights” movement and getting angry because we don’t want him as “our voice.”

        I think feminists are bothered by it more than Elam himself. Despite the fact that there are MRAs are who are openly critical of him and others with somewhat loose relations are distancing themsleves, feminists fight tooth and nail to hold onto him as the voice of the enemy.

        Notice how everytime Elam says something objectionable or straight offensive feminists are right there hanging onto his every word?

        When people fashion themselves as heroes they end up needing an enemy. And some will do whatever it takes to always have an enemy.

  2. Can I ask some critical questions you might not like? No offence meant, but curiosity is burning me.

    Do “red pill” guys really try to shame MGTOWs into marriage? I look at the red pill subreddit and the red pill subreddit is full of anti-marriage rants every day (although there are married guys there too, and those with LTRs). And the company Roosh keeps is not very traditional, either. It seems they generally want to avoid babies and attachment when they don’t want those things. But I did notice that people there sometimes admit a man might have a need to be attached romantically. Not all men, just a specific individual man.

    Another thing. Are MGTOWs anti-marriage and get offended when someone says marriage is good, or are they only anti MODERN marriage? (Marriage 2.0). Just curious. I can understand the latter, but the former sounds exactly like the “marriage is oppression of women” feminists. I mean, it’s fine to have that opinion, but it’s no less shaming than traditionalists’ opinion that everyone should marry, or else they are bad. Thoughts?

    1. “Do “red pill” guys really try to shame MGTOWs into marriage?”

      First off, not a fan of the red pill/blue pill worldview:

      https://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com/2012/08/04/pill-popperz-and-other-assorted-looney-tunes/

      Infact if Elam is a red pill aware alpha, may I be the omega to the nth power mangina of the galaxy.

      The gist of many manuresphere blogs seems to be rack up notches in your twenties, then in your thirties find a good woman. (also what is up with the married PUA’s?)

      The problem isn’t wether “red pillers” try to shame MGTOW’s, the problem is asshole Elam from AVfM one day shits on MGTOW’s then the next day demands they join his movement, play nice and accept that a man can marry and be MGTOW. As Barbarossaaa succinctly put it, MRA’s don’t know how to stay in their lane.

      “Are MGTOWs anti-marriage and get offended when someone says marriage is good, or are they only anti MODERN marriage?”

      Perhaps if the marriage laws changed significantly, men committed far less suicide and women weren’t initiating this 70% then MGTOW’s as a group might lighten up on this. However, beside “knowing” the paternity of your kids, what is the point? In some places it is even illegal to test the paternity of your “supposed” kids.

      “I can understand the latter, but the former sounds exactly like the “marriage is oppression of women” feminists.”

      marriage and traditionalism has been extraordinarily destructive to low status men. It’s not “oppression” in a marxist sense it’s a raw deal. Ironic and funny how MGTOW get compared to radical feminists. Very different as these things are occuring in different cultural conditions. Infact it is the manuresphere proper that advocates close male friendships and is more tolerant of homosexuals. I personally dislike the company of other men and strongly dislike homosexuals.

      “And the company Roosh keeps is not very traditional, either.”

      Roshiepoops is a strange creature. He is an Arab but tries to pass himself off as a white guy with a tan. He’d look down upon a halfbreed like me. And he’s buddy’s with homosexual WN Jack Don-0-van. I wouldn’t be surprised if a few of his “notches” were men. He hates “sluts” but his “career” couldn’t exist without them. He’s in a world of cognative dissonance, just like the stripper who makes a shit ton of money from pathetic lonely guys and thinks the men making her rich are the slime of the earth.

  3. Also, what do you think of this argument they often make in the manosphere about mysogyny: “If I really hated women, I’d try to avoid them as much as possible”. I think it’s a pretty bad argument, considering feminists want to force their way into male spaces all the time, and destroy everything (they must really love men, eh? 🙂 ). But it does seem to indicate that MGTOWs are somehow more misogynistic.

    But if that’s how misogyny is defined, what’s the big deal about it? If you dislike something, why is it bad to avoid it? I generally just avoid people who caused me/tried to cause me harm, instead of taking revenge. Keep the good and throw out the bad – that’s my life philosophy 🙂 It’s better than staying, and engaging in mutual harm.

    But many guys can’t just drop women, they want/need sex and romantic feelings, or babies if they are so inclined, so they must stay, and try to minimize the mutual harm. They might feel some misogyny, or they might not. It has nothing to do with whether they pursue women or not.

    Because of this, I think being a MGTOW, red piller, PUA or MRA doesn’t make you more or less misogynist by itself.

    1. “Because of this, I think being a MGTOW, red piller, PUA or MRA doesn’t make you more or less misogynist by itself.”

      Actually, I think Roosh 5 and Fartiste are far more misogynist than I am. Also alpha dudebro Elam called his Youtube channel “the happy misogynist.”

      The first reason MGTOW’s are called misogynist is because in general, we don’t give a fuck about political correctness or policing our language.

      The more important reason is we are resisting control. If someone called me a misogynist, I’ll laugh in their face. If someone called me a perma virgin, I’ll just say, well, for the most part, but just asked your mom and your sister, and your girlfriend. The ‘misogyny” accusations are a pathetic attempt to control with shaming language. I’m against real misogyny, that is things like female infanticide in shitholes like India and China. But misogyny ™ where a racist upper middle class feminist trans-womyn like Marcotte chipped her finger nail, bring it on!!!

      “But many guys can’t just drop women, they want/need sex and romantic feelings, or babies if they are so inclined, so they must stay, and try to minimize the mutual harm.”

      In my view it’s far better to pay a smoking hot prostitute than to twist yourself like a pretzel and hang out in clubs trying to land a drunk woman. As far as not having kids, well, I’d love to have a son but there’s a better chance of me winning the lottery than finding a good woman (and I don’t even play the lottery.)

      1. I’m pretty sure Paul Elam was being ironic with that username (at least according to Bernard Chapin, who doesn’t like him btw), he was just bad at making it look ironic. Manboobz made the same mistake. Sometimes your “funny” screenname will backfire on you. Not yours though, stonerwithaboner, that’s pretty funny.

        I agree with you that it’s probably better to just visit prostitutes, if a good woman is unavailable. Everyone has some flaws, but there is a limit to how much you should allow yourself to tolerate.

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