The Real Peterman left a great comment on the thread where I exchanged words with Elam.
“Paul, maybe a better way of looking at it would be to imagine someone who has never heard of the MRM or Amanda Marcotte or David Futrelle, and reads a MRM-related website for the first time. What do you want them to see? An article about equal rights or a link to a white supremacist organization? A discussion about how divorce courts harm men or a rant about how the government is out to get people who follow the paleo diet?
That’s a good point about people who will lie whether we give them ammunition or not. But if those people tell a vicious lie about us to someone and that someone goes to a manosphere website and sees a link to white separatists, they will be more likely to believe that lie.
You are right that a person doesn’t have to approve of everything on a website to approve of that site. There are Democrats and Republicans posting at A Voice For Men, but that’s alright because those differences can be put aside for a common goal. But some differences I can’t abide, and other people can’t, either, such as saying white people are better than other people. That crosses a line. I can forgive someone who likes a different tax policy than I do, but I can’t forgive racism.
If anyone wants to ask me what I’ve done for the MRM, well, I suppose I haven’t done anything. But I’d rather do nothing to the MRM than hurt it by linking it to nuts like white supremacists.”
Anyways, towards the end, this is where he probably has a different view than I do.
“Paul, I like and appreciate A Voice For men and the work you do there. Keep up the good work!”
My feeling is more like someone who truly believes in the free market that some companies that have a poor product and bad management should just go bankrupt. That’s what I feel with the current MRM.
Lets go with this analogy a little further, since Elam did bring up status–“Let me know when you actually DO something yourself, other than second guess those that have more to say than to nitpick other MRAs.” & “Get a job, son, and quickly. You have turned your opinionating into a mothers basement video game.” Let’s assume he is a business owner and I’m a lowly Sales Rep or cashier. Well, he comes into the the shop once a week. He might have 30+ years in the industry. He might have more education, more wealth, more experience, more status. Well, there’s one thing he doesn’t have at this point. I’m on the front lines. I’m dealing with the so-called customers. I’m hearing their complaints. Sure, it’s human nature that people love to whine and some of the complaints are just people who are hung over and want to take it out on someone. But then there are a lot of legitimate complaints. Customer X tells me how the product broke after three weeks of light use. Customer Y tells me how she had to wait 90 minutes on the phone to get someone to talk to her. Customer Z tells me something that is a hybrid of the first two complaints. I start seeing some serious problems and try to tell the business owner.
He responds, “Son, you just don’t have CONFIDENCE. Don’t you know that our product was rated the 1 best buy in 2004 and 2006? I’ve been in this business since longer than you knew how to get yer dick hard and jack off. And by the looks of you, that’s all your doing right now. When I was your age, I had to swat the ladies off like flies.”
I’m looking down, saying “Yes, Sir.” Inside my head I’m thinking, man, I’m giving you key information on how you can improve your business. I’m telling you where the flaws are in your business model and your INSULTING me? I’m trying to help. Man, tomorrow I’m gonna be dropping of an application at Competitor A, I’ve heard they have a better commission structure and they did win the best buy award in 2010 and 2012. Maybe I can work the same amount of hours and go from 22k a year to 30+k. If they don’t hire me, there is always Competitor B–can’t be any worse, right? All the while I am thinking the company deserves to go bankrupt, I’m just figuring some way to get out before they take me down too. This isn’t a sinking ship I owe my life too.
So maybe you see what I’m trying to say or maybe it wasn’t a good analogy. But A Voice For Men IS NOT my voice! Simple as that. There may be an insightful article here or there. But this movement isn’t doing it, time to let it die off and something much better come along.
stonerwithaboner 
Elam strikes me as an egotist, which is never a good thing if you want to have a dynamic, adaptable organization, for the reasons you describe. I’m not going to condemn AvFM outright, but at the same time, I don’t feel like putting much effort into supporting it, either. Some of the articles there are so badly researched that the average university feminist could easily poke holes in them.
We need a fact-based, ideologically moderate movement that looks out for mens’ collective interests. I’d be willing to get behind Glenn Sacks and Fathers and Families, but we need more than just them. In particular, we need a movement that advances the interests of young adult men, because they are among the most vulnerable demographics at present for a multitude of social and economic reasons.
If you want to have a movement that advances the interests of young adult men, you might consider keeping up with the times. Glenn Sacks is no longer with F & F. It is old news and you didn’t know it?
I also challenge you to back up your charge about the articles at AVfM. Some are not cited simply because they are opinion pieces and don’t require it. Otherwise, the articles there are well sourced. I won’t bother asking you about the personal insult, but will point out that it is quite fitting with the loose allegations.
As to the IMF link, at least the OP was balanced, even as I still diagree. IMF, at the time I originally linked to it, was not the same website that FB just shut down. There was much more focused and well reasoned commentary at its inception.
Over time it devolved into an embarrassment, mainly from some of the people who comment there, but that was not honestly something I noticed until people began to complain just a few weeks ago. That was the first I heard of their being a problem.
Since I am not Futrelle, I don’t let morons in the comment sections dictate whether I support or condemn a site. And I don’t read every article posted to every site that I link to. Truth tell, I read very few of them because I don’t have time to. If someone had ever contacted me with a specific example of something damaging on IMF that came from site management, I would have looked in to it. That never happened.
That is always a good reason not to turn into a concern troll because a site is linked. Site owners are not responsible for anything but their own content, and for the record, I don’t use a model that puts you in the role of my customer. My model puts you in the role of sole arbiter of your own activism. You choose not to support AVfM, and I respect that, because I am not trying to retain you at all. I simply provide a platform for people with a shared concern about misandry to speak and connect. So far it is working very well by every measure I established for it at inception.
I wish you well in doing better.
“If someone had ever contacted me with a specific example of something damaging on IMF that came from site management, I would have looked in to it.”
That sort of reactive approach is what prevents an organization going from “good” to “great.” It’s not good leadership. It’s allowing anyone and everyone to walk all over your hard work and subvert it for their own ends. You shouldn’t wait for people to alert you to problems, you should have the wherewithal to address them in a proactive manner. Otherwise your work will leave a black mark on men’s rights that people might remember for decades to come.
I’m positive that you are well aware of the way early feminists used to align themselves with the KKK, demonized gay men, and generally trampled on the rights of minority men whenever it helped them reach their goals faster? I’m also sure that you know the way Marxists successfully took over the women’s rights movement, something that the Civil Rights movement managed to avoid through strong leadership and a clear message.
“Paul, maybe a better way of looking at it would be to imagine someone who has never heard of the MRM or Amanda Marcotte or David Futrelle, and reads a MRM-related website for the first time. What do you want them to see? An article about equal rights or a link to a white supremacist organization? A discussion about how divorce courts harm men or a rant about how the government is out to get people who follow the paleo diet?
That’s a good point about people who will lie whether we give them ammunition or not. But if those people tell a vicious lie about us to someone and that someone goes to a manosphere website and sees a link to white separatists, they will be more likely to believe that lie.”
So much this. ^^
I also like some articles on AVfM, as they are excellent opinion pieces. But I do worry that the MRM is shooting themselves in the foot with allowing certain links/comments. They lose “minority” allies every time there’s a link to a white supremacist site. They lose gay and trans allies every time a homophobic or anti-transexual rant is allowed. And yes, they lose women allies when an article or comment violently condemns women rather than feminists.
If a movement is going to be made entirely of white, Christian, heterosexual, cisgendered, slightly misogynist menfolk…it’s only catering to a small portion of the population, and has very limited growth potential. This is the problem I find with the MRM in general, and why I believe that MGTOWs and actual *activists* will end up doing more good for men’s rights in the long run.
“If a movement is going to be made entirely of white, Christian, heterosexual, cisgendered, slightly misogynist menfolk…it’s only catering to a small portion of the population, and has very limited growth potential.”
Ironically, this is a critique many feminists make of the AVfM MRM. Interestingly enough, feminism made THE SAME mistakes. Google Marcotte racist or Rad fem transphobia for the 411. That’s why from my point of view, the AVfM crowd seems to be a parody of feminism. That’s not something I’m gonna sign up for…
As far as MGTOW, to me, it’s more about “dropping out” than activism. If a situation is going to be against you, better to not play than struggle in a rigged game.
Yeah, I remember reading about those before…and first wave feminists weren’t any better, siding with the KKK and other unsavory groups. The sad thing with most social movements is that there is no true membership…a woman who truly hates all men, approves of involuntary castration, and denies the personhood of MtF transsexuals can call herself a feminist all day long. In the same fashion, a man who approves of clitorectomies, believes women are inferior in all ways to men, and thinks that FtM transsexuals are scum can say he is a MRA to anyone who will listen. The MRM, just like feminism, has no one leader, speaker, or set of ideas that everyone can look up to…it’s a frickin free for all.
I agree with the basic concept of MGTOW, and as you know, singlehood in general. It makes the most sense, and is the easiest to do. Even I, someone who is physically female and can benefit very nicely from marriage if I do it “right”, sees just how messed up it has become. In good conscience, I cannot contribute to such an unequal situation. I’m absurdly lucky that I don’t desire a mate or children anyway…but I feel for those who *do* want a family but can’t force themselves to take the risk. It’s a sad state of affairs, friend.