I left a comment up on Megan Milanese’s Does the Porn Industry Suck? A Feminist’s Look article
http://www.lawsonry.com/736-does-the-porn-industry-suck-a-look-through-the-eyes-of-a-feminist/#disqus_thread
She replied back and we had exchanged comments:
Here it is:
Stoner With a Boner 3 days ago
well, since I read a few comments below….
if women are objectified as sex objects then men are objectified as success objects….
just sayin’
Megan Milanese 3 days ago in reply to Stoner With a Boner
This is ridiculous. I’m sure that men are so oppressed by being expected to be successful. It is obviously much worse to be expected to be successful than it is to always be expected to be sexually available – inviting rape, violence, harassment, and other abuses.
I’m not saying men aren’t limited by standards of masculinity which includes the expectation to be economically successful. They are limited, and that should change. But by no means is that at all comparable to the abuses inflicted on women because they are constantly sexually objectified.
Stoner With a Boner 3 days ago in reply to Megan Milanese
I guess that is called oppression olympics……
no one is forcing you to look a certian way and no one is forcing me to earn money….
granted there are pressures…..
1 person liked this.
Megan Milanese 3 days ago in reply to Stoner With a Boner
You don’t understand what the oppression olympics is, please don’t use the phrase until you do. The oppression olympics refers to the intersecting oppressions of marginalized people. Men are not marginalized.
Looking a certain way has nothing to do with the entitlement that men have to women’s bodies and the sexual objectification of women. That entitlement and objectification is present no matter what women are wearing.
Stoner With a Boner 3 days ago in reply to Megan Milanese
if I accept kiariarchy and am mixed race and less educated to you, then I can be more marginalized than you……
1 person liked this.
Megan Milanese 3 days ago in reply to Stoner With a Boner
I think you’re also missing the point of kyriarchy as a concept.
Stoner With a Boner 3 days ago in reply to Megan Milanese
if one accepts kyriarchy as a concept-there are multiple axis of oppression-not just gender.
if one accepts patriarchy, then there are two classes-male and female.
–maybe oversimplified and sorry for misspelling kyriarchy above.
if you are stating that there are two classes and women always have it worse then men–I don’t think this is a tenable position. There are many instances where this is not so.
if you are stating the world is a complex place and there are many shades of grey and many points of view–these discussions, though interesting will never capture the complexity and nuances of reality.
Megan Milanese 3 days ago in reply to Stoner With a Boner
I’m not saying that. I’m saying that all men have male privilege over all women. That doesn’t say that they have class, racial, hetero, able-bodied, etc. privilege over all women. So when I say that “men are not marginalized” what I mean is “men are not marginalized for being men”. They may, however, be marginalized for a variety of other reasons.
Stoner With a Boner 21 hours ago in reply to Megan Milanese
Here is a list of Female Privilege—-
As a woman …
1. I have a much lower chance of being murdered than a man.
2. I have a much lower chance of being driven to successfully commit suicide than a man.
3. I have a lower chance of being a victim of a violent assault than a man.
4. I have probably been taught that it is acceptable to cry.
5. I will probably live longer than the average man.
6. Most people in society probably will not see my overall worthiness as
a person being exclusively tied to how high up in the hierarchy I rise.
7. I have a much better chance of being considered to be a worthy mate
for someone, even if I’m unemployed with little money, than a man.
8. I am given much greater latitude to form close, intimate friendships than a man is.
9. My chance of suffering a work-related injury or illness is significantly lower than a man’s.
10. My chance of being killed on the job is a tiny fraction of a man’s.
11. If I shy away from fights, it is unlikely that this will damage my
standing in my peer group or call into question my worthiness as a sex
partner.
12. I am not generally expected to be capable of violence. If I lack
this capacity, this will generally not be seen as a damning personal
deficiency.
13. If I was born in North America since WWII, I can be almost certain
that my genitals were not mutilated soon after birth, without
anesthesia.
14. If I attempt to hug a friend in joy, it’s much less likely that my
friend will wonder about my sexuality or pull away in unease.
15. If I seek a hug in solace from a close friend, I’ll have much less
concern about how my friend will interpret the gesture or whether my
worthiness as a member of my gender will be called into question.
16. I generally am not compelled by the rules of my sex to wear emotional armor in interactions with most people.
17. I am frequently the emotional center of my family.
18. I am allowed to wear clothes that signify ‘vulnerability’, ‘playful openness’, and ’softness’.
19. I am allowed to BE vulnerable, playful, and soft without calling my worthiness as a human being into question.
20. If I interact with other people’s children — particularly people I
don’t know very well — I do not have to worry much about the interaction
being misinterpreted.
21. If I have trouble accommodating to some aspects of gender demands, I
have a much greater chance than a man does of having a sympathetic
audience to discuss the unreasonableness of the demand, and a much lower
chance that this failure to accommodate will be seen as signifying my
fundamental inadequacy as a member of my gender.
22. I am less likely to be shamed for being sexually inactive than a man.
23. From my late teens through menopause, for most levels of sexual
attractiveness, it is easier for me to find a sex partner at my
attractiveness level than it is for a man.
24. My role in my child’s life is generally seen as more important than the child’s father’s role.
http://www.feministcritics.org…
Megan Milanese 12 hours ago in reply to Stoner With a Boner
Ok let’s do this.
1. I have a much lower chance of being murdered than a man. (But an increased risk of being murdered by an intimate partner. Also, men commit the majority of violent crimes, so if you have a problem with violent crime, it might be because you have a problem with hypermasculinity manifesting itself in violent ways.)
2. I have a much lower chance of being driven to successfully commit suicide than a man. (being driven to successfully commit suicide? So basically what you’re doing is not mentioning that more women attempt suicide than men, and merely focusing on the fact that men are better at it. Do you know why they’re better at it? Masculinity standards encourage men to take more risks. Thus, when they go for it, they go for it. Masculinity standards also encourage men to be more violent in almost every aspect of their lives. This is no exception. Men go for the more violent means to an end and as a result are more successful than women, who more often than not go for pills or something, which is much easier to stop before it’s too late.)
3. I have a lower chance of being a victim of a violent assault than a man. (But an increased chance of being a victim of sexual assault, at least outside of prison for men. And again, it is men who perpetrate these assaults. Are you saying that men are oppressing themselves by committing violence against each other?)
4. I have probably been taught that it is acceptable to cry. (Yep. Masculinity standards again. It’s not like feminists aren’t constantly trying to change this.)
5. I will probably live longer than the average man. (We need the extra time to make up for the lower pay.)
6. Most people in society probably will not see my overall worthiness as
a person being exclusively tied to how high up in the hierarchy I rise. (High expectations? How terrible! It would be much better if no one ever expected you to amount to anything.)
7. I have a much better chance of being considered to be a worthy mate
for someone, even if I’m unemployed with little money, than a man. (Again – because women’s labor is expected to be unpaid! Oh no, men don’t get the pussy they feel they’re entitled to. I feel so bad. It’s obviously a privilege that women have that people don’t expect them to be successful. It was such a privilege in years past that when men wanted jobs women had, they automatically got them! So women had no economic freedom! And since that continues today, women still have lesser economic freedom than men! They get paid less on the dollar and then when they stop working to take care of children and do unpaid labor, MRAs step in and tell them how privileged they are. Wonderful.)
8. I am given much greater latitude to form close, intimate friendships than a man is. (What’s that? More complaints about traditional, heterosexist masculinity standards? Huh. Imagine that.)
9. My chance of suffering a work-related injury or illness is significantly lower than a man’s. (Yeah, because the “dangerous jobs” are generally old boys’ clubs who don’t want to let women in. When women try to be fire fighters? “Oh, we have to lower the standards for them and I don’t think they can do it”. When they want to be construction workers? They deal with sexual harassment constantly! Yeah, it’s such a privilege to not be given access to these types of jobs – generally ones that will pay more with less education or skills involved – and then have the men who wouldn’t let you in pitch a fit about the greater risks they take.)
10. My chance of being killed on the job is a tiny fraction of a man’s. (See above.)
11. If I shy away from fights, it is unlikely that this will damage my
standing in my peer group or call into question my worthiness as a sex
partner. (And maybe if men didn’t feel so bound up with violent masculinity, they wouldn’t either.)
12. I am not generally expected to be capable of violence. If I lack
this capacity, this will generally not be seen as a damning personal
deficiency. (And right here we see how even MRAs think violence is tangled up in masculinity. Oh, but if you criticize masculinity you hate men, but if you don’t point out the problems men face because of masculinity, you also hate men. Interesting.)
13. If I was born in North America since WWII, I can be almost certain
that my genitals were not mutilated soon after birth, without
anesthesia. (Ok I’m thinking about adding this one to the male privilege checklist: “You can seriously compare removing the foreskin of the penis to removing the entire clitoris.” Look, I’m not a proponent of performing any kind of genital cutting on babies or children, but the parallel being drawn here is obviously to female genital cutting/mutilation, but having the foreskin of a penis taken off is not comparable to sewing the vagina shut or removing part or all of the clitoris. It’s also generally not done with the intent to control the male’s sexuality, while many times female genital cutting is. So there’s a difference in intention and infliction which makes this parallel offensive. Oh, and also? Female genital cutting DOES happen in North America, so let’s not pretend it doesn’t and it’s only the problem of those foreigners or something.)
14. If I attempt to hug a friend in joy, it’s much less likely that my
friend will wonder about my sexuality or pull away in unease. (Oh look, that has a lot to do with heterosexism. Intersectionality? You’re kidding.)
15. If I seek a hug in solace from a close friend, I’ll have much less
concern about how my friend will interpret the gesture or whether my
worthiness as a member of my gender will be called into question. (See above.)
16. I generally am not compelled by the rules of my sex to wear emotional armor in interactions with most people. (Unless I want to be taken seriously in a political or business arena. Then if women show emotion they’re probably on the rag or “can’t handle it”.)
17. I am frequently the emotional center of my family. (Let me guess, this has to do with fathers not being valued? Well, I got a suggestion for how to fix that! Hey men, take on some more unpaid labor like women do and maybe people will emotionally value you more!)
18. I am allowed to wear clothes that signify ‘vulnerability’, ‘playful openness’, and ’softness’. (And then people will blame you if you’re a victim of violence while wearing clothes that suggest vulnerability and openness, because you were probably asking for it.)
19. I am allowed to BE vulnerable, playful, and soft without calling my worthiness as a human being into question. (Well, except when someone is trying to justify sexual assault.)
20. If I interact with other people’s children — particularly people I
don’t know very well — I do not have to worry much about the interaction
being misinterpreted. (What? Gender roles? You mean those things that feminists have said are oppressive for like, 40 years now?)
21. If I have trouble accommodating to some aspects of gender demands, I
have a much greater chance than a man does of having a sympathetic
audience to discuss the unreasonableness of the demand, and a much lower
chance that this failure to accommodate will be seen as signifying my
fundamental inadequacy as a member of my gender. (This just isn’t true. Maybe men don’t have a place to talk about standards of masculinity with other men, but that’s only because most men disregard feminist theory and discourse.)
22. I am less likely to be shamed for being sexually inactive than a man. (and more likely to be shamed for having (or even talking about) sex than a man – in fact, to the point where if I am sexually assaulted, I can be blamed for it, I “had it coming”, or it is never even brought up at all. Wow, pardon me if I don’t care if men are shamed for not having sex. Women are blamed for assaults they suffer if they do!)
23. From my late teens through menopause, for most levels of sexual
attractiveness, it is easier for me to find a sex partner at my
attractiveness level than it is for a man. (Men are entitled to the pussy that they want. If they aren’t getting it, that’s female privilege.)
24. My role in my child’s life is generally seen as more important than the child’s father’s role. (Because I am expected to do more unpaid labor in caring for my children.)
PS- this has about 20+ less bullet points than the male privilege checklist. . .hmm. . .so even in an MRA (Oh, excuse me, “gender equalist from a male perspective because god knows we don’t have enough male perspective out there”) attempt to “even out” the privileges, they just can’t seem to do it. . .
——–
Here is the link to the Feminist Critics blog, it didn’t copy above:
http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/06/08/female-privilege/
Now, just a few thoughts to Megan’s reply on the Female Privilege checklist:Interesting how she only responded to men’s shorter life spans that it made up for the less pay that women received. Anyways, the paygap is problematic, unmarried young women in cities earn more than their male counterparts.
“Most recently, the Wall Street Journal reported in an article dated September 1, 2010 entitled Young Single Women’s Pay Surpasses Male Peers that the earning power of young single women has surpassed that of their male peers in metropolitan areas around the US, a shift driven by the growing ranks of women who attend colleges and move on to high-earning jobs. According to an analysis of Census Bureau data released by Reach Advisors in 2008, single childless women between ages 22 and 30 were earning more than their male counterparts in most United States cities, with incomes that were 8% greater than males on average.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States
Now this isn’t to say that there isn’t a paygap….
However it is interesting that she skirted around the original statement about men’s shorter life expectancy.
“In the past, mortality rates for females in child-bearing age groups were higher than for males at the same age. This is no longer the case, and female human life expectancy is considerably higher than those of men. The reasons for this are not entirely certain. Traditional arguments tend to favor socio-environmental factors: historically, men have generally consumed more tobacco, alcohol and drugs than females in most societies, and are more likely to die from many associated diseases such as lung cancer, tuberculosis and cirrhosis of the liver.[38] Men are also more likely to die from injuries, whether unintentional (such as car accidents) or intentional (suicide, violence, war).[38] Men are also more likely to die from most of the leading causes of death (some already stated above) than women. Some of these in the United States include: cancer of the respiratory system, motor vehicle accidents, suicide, cirrhosis of the liver, emphysema, and coronary heart disease.[5] These far outweigh the female mortality rate from breast cancer and cervical cancer etc.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy
Interesting also was here response to number twenty–
20. If I interact with other people’s children — particularly people I
don’t know very well — I do not have to worry much about the interaction
being misinterpreted. (What? Gender roles? You mean those things that feminists have said are oppressive for like, 40 years now?)
I think her privilege is showing here. She has probably never been accused of being creepy. She doesn’t understand that a male fears being accused of doing something inappropriate when no such action occurred. No one will ever accuse her of being a “Chester the Molester.”
stonerwithaboner 